Freelancer vs Firm for MVP Development

[JimmyRose]

Have any of you been at this decision point before? Which was did you go and why?

We're looking for Rails devs in particular. I've talked to about 8 firms and 3 freelancers, all with their own pros and cons. These have been in the usual places - Eastern Europe, Philippines, Indonesia and India. The good firms are obviously way more expensive than everybody else. Two of the freelancers show a lot of promise. Seems like a crazy hard decision

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[Strive]

It really depends on what you need done exactly. Are you building an application from the ground up? What's your timeframe? Budget?

You should really be weighing cost vs. time vs. quality. If a firm can get it done in 3 months and has the resources to do a great job, while a freelancer may take twice or three times as long and is limited to their own experience, then the added cost is probably justifiable.

If you're really having a hard time listening to your gut instinct, give up control and let a coin flip decide it for you. It will save you a lot of unnecessary time-wasting and waffling.

 

[JimmyRose]

It's a ground up app, except for using a bootstrap theme so the CSS doesn't have to be built from scratch.

As far as budget goes, we can afford a firm but it just increases the risk if the app doesn't work out. Paying around half the price to work with a freelance developer means that it isn't as big a deal if everything goes to sh*t.

Haha, flipping a coin probably isn't a bad idea at this point...

 

[mgore714]

Set scaling milestones based on the app being developed. I recommend elance for this.

Also, how much $$$ you invest now depends on whether or not you want to scrap the code. If you're truly going for an MVP (minimum viable product), then go for the cheapest option. However, expect the code to be worthless if you intend to build on top of it. If you want to use the code later on then go with a more established firm. If you want to get a happy medium then hire a qualified freelancer and have the firm serve as the project manager and inspect the code. Pay out milestones based on their confirmation.

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[tafy]

I would get the company to code it properly and fast. then you can build on top of it and have the support to alter it in the future

 

[ari_ari]

Here's a larger issue: Are you sure that any of these people can code? Who is going to do the project management? Are you going to do waterfall or agile? Have you ever embarked on something of the scale you are now doing?

 

[JimmyRose]

If you're truly going for an MVP (minimum viable product), then go for the cheapest option. However, expect the code to be worthless if you intend to build on top of it.

That's interesting. Throwing the code away sounds awful to be honest. Is it always going to be like that though? There still are great devs on freelance websites.

I would get the company to code it properly and fast. then you can build on top of it and have the support to alter it in the future

This would be ideal I think, but the budget can almost double. Guess that is the trade off

Here's a larger issue: Are you sure that any of these people can code? Who is going to do the project management? Are you going to do waterfall or agile? Have you ever embarked on something of the scale you are now doing?

For sure. I don't even know if the expensive firms are any good, and it's hard to tell without talking to their previous clients. And of course they will only provide me references of good clients.

Agile for sure. We've already got a Windows application that was a big project, but it was just myself and my business partner building it. We didn't outsource anything and we didn't use any proper procedures like agile. So in a way, it's all kind of new to me - new language, outsourcing and proper processes

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[mememan]

Take a look at this:
https://www.thefastlaneforum.com/co...rom-a-loser-how-i-lost-10k-outsourcing.48558/
My project was nowhere near as complicated as your probably is. I had it all specced out. Talked to a good 50+ teams/freelancers.
Go cheap and fire fast is my advice.

 

[JimmyRose]

Take a look at this:
https://www.thefastlaneforum.com/co...rom-a-loser-how-i-lost-10k-outsourcing.48558/
My project was nowhere near as complicated as your probably is. I had it all specced out. Talked to a good 50+ teams/freelancers.
Go cheap and fire fast is my advice.

Cheers. Actually read through your thread a week or two ago. Have you found someone to do the work now that is working out for you?

 

[mememan]

Cheers. Actually read through your thread a week or two ago. Have you found someone to do the work now that is working out for you?

No. At the moment I have code that is 85% of the way done (I hope) from before. If you send me the names of the people you are considering, I may have already talked to them (I literally sent every bit of code I had to 100+ large firms on eLance at one point).

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[ari_ari]

That's interesting. Throwing the code away sounds awful to be honest. Is it always going to be like that though? There still are great devs on freelance websites.



This would be ideal I think, but the budget can almost double. Guess that is the trade off



For sure. I don't even know if the expensive firms are any good, and it's hard to tell without talking to their previous clients. And of course they will only provide me references of good clients.

Agile for sure. We've already got a Windows application that was a big project, but it was just myself and my business partner building it. We didn't outsource anything and we didn't use any proper procedures like agile. So in a way, it's all kind of new to me - new language, outsourcing and proper processes

You have a few options:
1. hire a freelancer off the Hacker News monthly Freelancer, Seeking Freelancer thread
2. Ask to see code produced by whoever you're going to work with
3. Take a small feature off the larger app and have it developed by 2-3 different people and see which ones meet your criteria.

Just some notes from someone in the midst of a huge project (internal CRM with payment processing, customer management, the works):
1. outsourced developers tend to be very rigid
2. they don't always understand the biz model, so you as the biz owner have to ride shotgun on them and make sure they are developing for your business needs.
3. Make sure you have a very thorough spec. We hired a business analyst to create the original requirements list. Even then we missed some stuff.
4. The old RentaCoder disclaimer is very apt: "I realize that my software project will take 3-5x estimated time of development".

 

[tafy]

So what are you going for?

I think it also depends if you need more than one person to do the project...

So a freelancer would be great if its a 1 man job but a firm would be better if you need a team

 

[JimmyRose]

So what are you going for?

I think it also depends if you need more than one person to do the project...

So a freelancer would be great if its a 1 man job but a firm would be better if you need a team

Thanks to a pre-sale backing out, I've decided to get a few more pre sales before I proceed. However still talking to devs.

What I've seen so far:

• Philippines doesn't seem to have many Rails devs. The ones I did find were pretty expensive @ around $50USD / hr
• Indonesia has a few, mostly freelancers and priced around $18 / hr. Chatted to some on Skype that seem pretty good. Total price looking around $8k
• Eastern Europe (mostly Poland) ranged in quotes from $15k to $50k. $35-60 USD / hr
• Local Aus firms are around $100 / hr or more. Holy shit.
• India is all over the shop. Some $13 / hour, some $55. Some quotes 2-3 times the hours of the others. Around $10-13k quotes from the cheaper guys
• Found a local guy who is keen to do part time work on the side from his full time job. Price is good too.

All in all it's hard to say what to do. Some of the Polish guys sound awesome and had great Skype chats with em. Maybe it is time for a small code test for the freelancers and see how they go.

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[mentalic]

@JimmyRose Don't count the 'hours'. An experienced developer can do in 2 hours what an amateur developer can do in 8 or more
@ari_ari Awesome recruiting strategy!

 

[tafy]

Im looking into getting something built too and while I was thinking a agency they were asking a lot of money plus detailed specs etc etc

The agencies all wanted 4-5k to write a detailed document... before they started.

So I went and I think I found a pro coder for $30 an hour that can build my saas idea from the ground up in a framework. (Part Time)

I will see how it goes

 

[ari_ari]

I really would not hire for the whole project now. Trust me from too much personal experience.

Here's another way to try it. Remember your job is to generate cash flow for your business, not spend weeks at a time trolling elance.
Find an HR Person, create specs for your ideal developer/development team (maybe you need a Team Lead + Dev, I don't know your specific specs). So you might tell this person you need someone with 5+ years development experience on PHP, specifically CodeIgniter, with a solid background in working on SaaS and Authorize.net, with some background as a systems Admin. Just a random example.

You tell your HR person to weed out anyone who:
can't speak and write english to your requirements
doesn't meet your core requirements
doesn't show up on time
doesn't know what version control is
can't provide source code for developed projects
doesn't have phone numbers and emails of past employers who you can go to and get feedback from.
etc

Then you interview the few people who will actually make it through HR. Ideally it's a brief technical interview or send off to a code testing platform. Maybe you ask them why they prefer Git to SVN, I don't know. Find out if they have GitHub projects and go look at them. Ask them if they have a stackoverflow profile. You know, what most modern developers do, not sweat shop PHP monkeys.

Then you hire for a small part of the project. So pretend you're building a whole shopping cart, you have them develop the checkout functionality, or the add to cart functionality, or the image upload functionality. You get the idea. Just keep breaking down things into itty bitty pieces until you have something functional that would be a small project.

Very quickly you will figure out if they are as good as they say they are, or just spending all day on php.net looking up how to use strpos(). (Yes, that's a real example). 3 hours in and he was fired. Do this for 2 or 3 people you think might be a good fit, and you have a team. Now you get to be the PM until your product grows and generates cash to hire one!

Good luck

Thanks to a pre-sale backing out, I've decided to get a few more pre sales before I proceed. However still talking to devs.

What I've seen so far:

• Philippines doesn't seem to have many Rails devs. The ones I did find were pretty expensive @ around $50USD / hr
• Indonesia has a few, mostly freelancers and priced around $18 / hr. Chatted to some on Skype that seem pretty good. Total price looking around $8k
• Eastern Europe (mostly Poland) ranged in quotes from $15k to $50k. $35-60 USD / hr
• Local Aus firms are around $100 / hr or more. Holy shit.
• India is all over the shop. Some $13 / hour, some $55. Some quotes 2-3 times the hours of the others. Around $10-13k quotes from the cheaper guys
• Found a local guy who is keen to do part time work on the side from his full time job. Price is good too.

All in all it's hard to say what to do. Some of the Polish guys sound awesome and had great Skype chats with em. Maybe it is time for a small code test for the freelancers and see how they go.

 

Dislike ads? Remove them and support the forum: Subscribe to Fastlane Insiders.

[JimmyRose]

@JimmyRose Don't count the 'hours'. An experienced developer can do in 2 hours what an amateur developer can do in 8 or more

Absolutely. That's why I've been asking for estimates and throwing out the ones that are way too high. It's hard to know till you get started though.

What ari_ari suggested - getting them to write a small chunk first - might give you a good indication

Im looking into getting something built too and while I was thinking a agency they were asking a lot of money plus detailed specs etc etc

The agencies all wanted 4-5k to write a detailed document... before they started.

So I went and I think I found a pro coder for $30 an hour that can build my saas idea from the ground up in a framework. (Part Time)

I will see how it goes

Nice, good luck.

That seems odd. Most good agencies who have gone agile these days only need user stories and mockups. Maybe some flow diagrams or something like that, but big detailed specs are kind of old-style thinking now. (at least from what I've learned in the last couple of months)

I really would not hire for the whole project now. Trust me from too much personal experience.

Here's another way to try it. Remember your job is to generate cash flow for your business, not spend weeks at a time trolling elance.
Find an HR Person, create specs for your ideal developer/development team (maybe you need a Team Lead + Dev, I don't know your specific specs). So you might tell this person you need someone with 5+ years development experience on PHP, specifically CodeIgniter, with a solid background in working on SaaS and Authorize.net, with some background as a systems Admin. Just a random example.

Cool idea. Would you recommend the HR person looking locally or odesk type places?

 

[tafy]

That seems odd. Most good agencies who have gone agile these days only need user stories and mockups. Maybe some flow diagrams or something like that, but big detailed specs are kind of old-style thinking now. (at least from what I've learned in the last couple of months)

Exactly what I think after readign Get Real, im gonna go agile myself and get a capable guy to build it for me and bring in some designer for front end as and when needed. He isnt hired yet but should be soon.