Self Publishing a Kindle Book & then finding a publisher

[Groupie]

I have written around 50,000 words of a book that I project will have 75 - 80,000 words upon completion.

My proof reader loves it and thinks it could be a big seller. I was going to self publish it and she thinks I should try to find a publisher. Will it hurt me in finding a publisher if I copyright it and Kindle publish it first and then try to seek out a publisher?

Or does that really matter?

Thanks!

 

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[Held for Ransom]

Hey Groupie,

I think most of the folks here self-publish but as I recall Chicken Hawk had a book that was supposed to be published at some point. Probably worth a PM to confirm.

I'm not sure what copyrighting has to do with your question but why not publish it yourself and see what happens? With self publishing, you don't have to wait months or years to find out if your book is a hit, or a flop.

There's plenty of self pubbers out there that make six figure incomes annually and never get a book deal. I think it all depends on what your goals are but at the end of the day, the only people's opinions who matter about your book are buyers.

 

[Groupie]

I was told that some publishers do not like the hassle of working with people that have already self published. I was also told that they like to be the 1st obtain a copyright as the transfer is a headache. I have no idea if that is true or not.

 

[Held for Ransom]

I was told that some publishers do not like the hassle of working with people that have already self published.

That could very well be true. On the other hand, I can pretty much bet if you wind up being a bestselling author, those hassles will somehow get resolved.

I was also told that they like to be the 1st obtain a copyright as the transfer is a headache. I have no idea if that is true or not.

Hmmm, yeah, I don't know about that either unfortunately. Sorry I can't be of more help there Groupie.

 

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[Vigilante]

It sounds to me like you're listening to a lot of random advice without really vetting out the facts one way or the other.

 

[ChickenHawk]

Holy Wall of Text, Batman!!! I typed out my answer beforehand, and I seriously can't believe how long it is. But it's complicated, so here it goes. These are my thoughts based on pursuing the traditional route myself and following a ton of writer/agent/editor blogs for years. Here are some factors to consider:

YOU'LL NEED AN AGENT: To get a traditional fiction publishing deal, you will almost certainly need an agent. Very few traditional publishers will even look at un-agented stuff anymore. Your odds of securing a top agent about 10,000 to one. This is based on the number of queries they receive versus the number of new clients they accept annually. Even if you do get a top agent, this doesn't guarantee you'll get a publishing deal. (I'm living proof of this.)

AGENTS SHY AWAY FROM SELF-PUBLISHED WORKS: Agents want a fresh, shiny new books to represent. If you've already published your book, it's no longer new and shiny. The obvious exception is if your self-published book does really, really well. Then, agents and publishers will come knocking on your door.

GETTING AN AGENT TAKES MONTHS/YEARS: Let's say your work is the next Harry Potter. It will probably still take months, possibly years, to get an agent. You've got to send them a snappy query letter begging them to read your novel. It’ll take them weeks/months to read that letter. If your query interests them, they’ll agree to read part (or possibly all) of your novel. If your novel impresses the snot out of them, and they think they can sell it, they'll offer to represent you. Victory! But wait…

GETTING A PUBLISHING DEAL: Now you have an agent, so you've made it, right? Alas, wrong. Now, your agent must sell it to a publisher. In order for this to happen, an editor must fall head-over-heels in love with it, and his/her superiors must agree to add your book to their lineup. This is no small feat. Plus, it also takes weeks/months/possibly years before you’ll see your book in print. But let's assume the first publisher loves it, and they want it NOW. It will still take nearly a year before your book makes it to the shelves because your book must be edited, slotted into its schedule, and then finally released.

GETTING YOUR MONEY: If you sell your book to a traditional publisher, they’ll pay you an advance against royalties. For new authors, this usually ranges somewhere between $1,000 to $10,000. You probably won’t get all this money up front, but rather in increments as the publishing process moves forward. Regardless, you will not earn another dime until your book “earns out.” Most books don’t earn out their advances, which means that your advance is all you’ll get. Plus, your chunk of the sale per book is much smaller than if you self-publish. After all, the agent and publishing house have invested a considerable amount of effort into this, and need to be compensated. Speaking of money, all of your money will be routed through your agent, who will take their cut and pay you the rest. This means that when you sell a book, it will take months before you get your money for it.

IN SUMMARY…

DOWNSIDES OF THE TRADITIONAL ROUTE: It takes forever, it’s demoralizing, and you spend an incredible amount of time and effort trying to get a whole bunch of people to say “yes”. If even one of them says “no,” your deal is dead in the water.

TO BE FAIR, HERE ARE SOME UPSIDES: Once it’s actually published, your book will have immediate, wide distribution. You’ll see it at your local Barnes & Nobles, and you won’t have to worry about formatting your pages, designing your cover, or uploading it to Amazon. Your book will be professionally edited and probably glorious. You’ll benefit from free publicity and built-in promotional mechanisms. You may sell more copies than if you self-published, but this doesn’t mean that you will personally make more money because your percentage of each sale will be significantly smaller.

If you’re seeking real, honest advice about your book, I’d say this. If you like the idea of going the traditional route, you can always do that. Try to get an agent. Lightning might strike on your first try. Like the lottery, it does happen for some people. If you do try to get an agent and fail, you can always self-publish. But you can’t necessarily go the other way. Once you’ve self-published, your book must perform amazingly well, or an agent won’t touch it with a ten-foot pole.

Hope this helps!

 

[Held for Ransom]

Great post, CH.

 

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[AllenCrawley]

I have written around 50,000 words of a book that I project will have 75 - 80,000 words upon completion.

My proof reader loves it and thinks it could be a big seller. I was going to self publish it and she thinks I should try to find a publisher. Will it hurt me in finding a publisher if I copyright it and Kindle publish it first and then try to seek out a publisher?

Or does that really matter?

Thanks

This thread would be a good read for you...

https://www.thefastlaneforum.com/se...006-hello-denver-self-publishing-success.html

 

[EPerceptions]

I don't have links to the exact posts but I'm pretty sure Konrath has written a lot about self vs. traditional publishing for fiction writers: A Newbie's Guide to Publishing

In short, self publishing gives you way more control, speed and money.

I've never done either from the fiction side but in my experience with nonfiction, self publishing is the way to go unless you're just looking for a feather in your cap.

Back in 2001 or 2002 I sent a book outline to an agent and he, in turn, sent it to a few publishers. One of the biggest for tech/ computer books at the time loved it and wanted to do an unofficial guide. Six months later there had been no movement other than jaws, and I learned that a new version of the software was 3-6 months out and included substantial changes. At that time, average cradle to grave was 18-24 months for tech books. Needless to say, even if all the stars aligned perfectly my book would be obsolete before it hit the shelves. So I withdrew the proposal.

A year or two ago I had an agent solicit me as a co-writer for a multi book project and the process seemed little changed. Admittedly there is huge appeal at having big name backers. But in the end it boils down to a heck of a lot of work for the equivalent of a couple thousand dollars a year. Fiction has bigger potential but much bigger odds.

 

[Vigilante]

Holy Wall of Text, Batman!!! I typed out my answer beforehand, and I seriously can't believe how long it is. But it's complicated, so here it goes. These are my thoughts based on pursuing the traditional route myself and following a ton of writer/agent/editor blogs for years. Here are some factors to consider:

YOU'LL NEED AN AGENT: To get a traditional fiction publishing deal, you will almost certainly need an agent. Very few traditional publishers will even look at un-agented stuff anymore. Your odds of securing a top agent about 10,000 to one. This is based on the number of queries they receive versus the number of new clients they accept annually. Even if you do get a top agent, this doesn't guarantee you'll get a publishing deal. (I'm living proof of this.)

AGENTS SHY AWAY FROM SELF-PUBLISHED WORKS: Agents want a fresh, shiny new books to represent. If you've already published your book, it's no longer new and shiny. The obvious exception is if your self-published book does really, really well. Then, agents and publishers will come knocking on your door.

GETTING AN AGENT TAKES MONTHS/YEARS: Let's say your work is the next Harry Potter. It will probably still take months, possibly years, to get an agent. You've got to send them a snappy query letter begging them to read your novel. It’ll take them weeks/months to read that letter. If your query interests them, they’ll agree to read part (or possibly all) of your novel. If your novel impresses the snot out of them, and they think they can sell it, they'll offer to represent you. Victory! But wait…

GETTING A PUBLISHING DEAL: Now you have an agent, so you've made it, right? Alas, wrong. Now, your agent must sell it to a publisher. In order for this to happen, an editor must fall head-over-heels in love with it, and his/her superiors must agree to add your book to their lineup. This is no small feat. Plus, it also takes weeks/months/possibly years before you’ll see your book in print. But let's assume the first publisher loves it, and they want it NOW. It will still take nearly a year before your book makes it to the shelves because your book must be edited, slotted into its schedule, and then finally released.

GETTING YOUR MONEY: If you sell your book to a traditional publisher, they’ll pay you an advance against royalties. For new authors, this usually ranges somewhere between $1,000 to $10,000. You probably won’t get all this money up front, but rather in increments as the publishing process moves forward. Regardless, you will not earn another dime until your book “earns out.” Most books don’t earn out their advances, which means that your advance is all you’ll get. Plus, your chunk of the sale per book is much smaller than if you self-publish. After all, the agent and publishing house have invested a considerable amount of effort into this, and need to be compensated. Speaking of money, all of your money will be routed through your agent, who will take their cut and pay you the rest. This means that when you sell a book, it will take months before you get your money for it.

IN SUMMARY…

DOWNSIDES OF THE TRADITIONAL ROUTE: It takes forever, it’s demoralizing, and you spend an incredible amount of time and effort trying to get a whole bunch of people to say “yes”. If even one of them says “no,” your deal is dead in the water.

TO BE FAIR, HERE ARE SOME UPSIDES: Once it’s actually published, your book will have immediate, wide distribution. You’ll see it at your local Barnes & Nobles, and you won’t have to worry about formatting your pages, designing your cover, or uploading it to Amazon. Your book will be professionally edited and probably glorious. You’ll benefit from free publicity and built-in promotional mechanisms. You may sell more copies than if you self-published, but this doesn’t mean that you will personally make more money because your percentage of each sale will be significantly smaller.

If you’re seeking real, honest advice about your book, I’d say this. If you like the idea of going the traditional route, you can always do that. Try to get an agent. Lightning might strike on your first try. Like the lottery, it does happen for some people. If you do try to get an agent and fail, you can always self-publish. But you can’t necessarily go the other way. Once you’ve self-published, your book must perform amazingly well, or an agent won’t touch it with a ten-foot pole.

Hope this helps!

This. This is how you add value to this forum. Speed plus. This response alone could make this thread legendary.

 

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[liquidglass]

Finding a publisher can be hard work, I'm not speaking from personal experience yet but from reading biographies of other authors. Andy Andrews, a favorite of mine, self published his first book (when there was no ebook) by spending enough to get 25,000 copies made, he sold them, handed them out, etc. This was after his was turned down over 25 times. Once he had sold 100,000 copies all of a sudden publishers were after him wanting his next book.

I've seen similar trends on ebook self publishers, if you can market it a little, get a decent number of readers, then finding a publisher won't be an issue for you in future books. The reason I say future is you may enjoy the profit a little too much from self publishing to give it up

 

[Lauryn]

My immediate response - without having read everyone else's thoughts:

Copyright. Self-publish. Focus on a solid marketing plan (since you have a great book). Right now, your "publisher" is really only good for mass printing and distribution. Your agent is only going to get in the way also.

Soft launch the book on Amazon. Reinvest in getting physical copies printed. Market and create buzz - NOW.

Forget everyone else. Is it worth giving up creative control and like 50 percent or MORE of your profits just to do pretty much the bulk of the work anyway?

 

[Thriftypreneur]

I'm having a hard time understanding why anyone would really want a publisher. Ebooks outsell print books now, and you can self-publish to every major ebook platform. Then, you have print-on-demand places for your audience that wants print copies.

Bookstores are becoming a thing of the past. Which really hurts the only real leverage publishers have, distribution. I just don't see it being worth all the trouble, hassle, and loss in profit margins for the promotion a publisher could do for you. Especially when you can do the same thing yourself and buy books blasts or ads on whatever sites and create your own buzz.

 

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[Lauryn]

I'm having a hard time understanding why anyone would really want a publisher. Ebooks outsell print books now, and you can self-publish to every major ebook platform. Then, you have print-on-demand places for your audience that wants print copies.

Bookstores are becoming a thing of the past. Which really hurts the only real leverage publishers have, distribution. I just don't see it being worth all the trouble, hassle, and loss in profit margins for the promotion a publisher could do for you. Especially when you can do the same thing yourself and buy books blasts or ads on whatever sites and create your own buzz.

I largely agree with this... I took The BestSellers Project with Tiphani Montgomery and Azarel.... Best money I spent in terms of learning bout the real BUSINESS side of publishing. A lot of it is about planning, preparation and creativity.

I want you to know I believe in you enough that I don't think you really even NEED anyone to take more than half of your money only to leave you with 80 percent of the responsibility.

 

[Groupie]

Thanks for all the responses. I appreciate every single one of them.

 

[Held for Ransom]

It sounds to me like you're listening to a lot of random advice without really vetting out the facts one way or the other.

This. This is how you add value to this forum. Speed plus. This response alone could make this thread legendary.

I'm not sure how I missed these snarky posts from you yesterday or why I've drawn your ire all of a sudden. FWIW, I think I actually suggested early in the thread that the OP contact Chicken Hawk via PM for advice since she had specific experience on this topic.

So, by inference, what you are suggesting is that ALL of your advice or posts here contribute nothing but legendary value? Give me a break man. Get off your high horse man and quit sermonizing about what has value or not.

I'm pretty sure that I've contributed plenty of readily visible value to this forum since I've joined and for you to passive aggressively suggest otherwise is ridiculous.

FWIW, there's a lot you don't see here like the 100s of PMs I've answered or the dozens of people (who use the research tool I developed for my own purposes) for free every single day.

When I joined the forum, I don't recall it being called the "How Vigilante Thinks the Universe Ought to Run" forum. AFAIK, this is MJ's forum. When he tells me what I am doing is of no use, I will listen.

 

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[AllenCrawley]

Vig was responding to the OP.

 

[Held for Ransom]

Vig was responding to the OP.

If that's what it was then I stand corrected and apologize to Vigilante 1000%. I read a few times and didn't seem that way to me.

Thank you Allen.

 

[AllenCrawley]

I'm sure his post was in reply to post #3.

 

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[ChickenHawk]

Aw man, I hate to see that there's a disconnect here between two people who have both contributed so much value to this forum. For what it's worth, I also didn't take Vigilant's response to be directed at Held for Ransom, so I just think this is a misunderstanding.

That being said, this is the kind of forum where people don't sugar-coat their input. Depending on your viewpoint, this can be good, because it gets straight to the point, or bad, because it can ruffle some feathers -- so this place isn't always smooth-sailing, that's for sure.

Regardless, I'm sure I'm not alone in saying that you're both people whose posts I pay particular attention to, because your advice, input, and contributions can literally be life-changing for those of us seeking to follow in your footsteps.

 

[dru-man]

I'm sure his post was in reply to post #3.

Aw man, I hate to see that there's a disconnect here between two people who have both contributed so much value to this forum. For what it's worth, I also didn't take Vigilant's response to be directed at Held for Ransom, so I just think this is a misunderstanding.

I agree that it was just a misunderstanding. A good reminder to all of us that it's really helpful to use quotes in direct responses to posts so people don't get confused about who you're talking to and what you were trying to say.

I've made the same mistake thinking people were talking to me when they weren't, and thus taking their comments out of context, on other forums before. It happens.

 

[COSenior]

I don't have links to the exact posts but I'm pretty sure Konrath has written a lot about self vs. traditional publishing for fiction writers: A Newbie's Guide to Publishing

Also co-authored a very entertaining ebook on the subject Amazon.com: Be the Monkey - Ebooks and Self-Publishing: A Dialog Between Authors Barry Eisler and Joe Konrath eBook: Jack Kilborn, J.A. Konrath, Barry Eisler: Kindle Store

 

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[Vigilante]

I'm not sure how I missed these snarky posts from you yesterday or why I've drawn your ire all of a sudden. FWIW, I think I actually suggested early in the thread that the OP contact Chicken Hawk via PM for advice since she had specific experience on this topic.

So, by inference, what you are suggesting is that ALL of your advice or posts here contribute nothing but legendary value? Give me a break man. Get off your high horse man and quit sermonizing about what has value or not.

I'm pretty sure that I've contributed plenty of readily visible value to this forum since I've joined and for you to passive aggressively suggest otherwise is ridiculous.

FWIW, there's a lot you don't see here like the 100s of PMs I've answered or the dozens of people (who use the research tool I developed for my own purposes) for free every single day.

When I joined the forum, I don't recall it being called the "How Vigilante Thinks the Universe Ought to Run" forum. AFAIK, this is MJ's forum. When he tells me what I am doing is of no use, I will listen.

?

This was in response to ChickenHawk (for a super thoughtful post) and the subsequent speed that I gave her. That's why I quoted her post in my post. It had zero bearing on you.

Neither one of the posts you quoted were aimed at you. The first was at the OP, and the second one was props for CH.

So... the good news is no issue.

Other than the fact that you think I am on a high horse, sermonizing, devaluing your contributions, and that I have a God complex. Probably time for me to take a break.

Carry on. Nothing else to see here. :wasntme-sign:

 

[Charles]

I have a 15 year old daughter that is writing a book at the moment....she is quite good. Then I got all the questions on how she was going to publish etc. This post has really helped , she is setting up a web page forum and discussion on the topic which in turn will promote her book. I can't see anyone here using an agent or a publisher due to the loss of control, and wholly agree with the comment that if it is good enough and selling enough they will come knocking!
No doubt I will be helping her in her 'project' and wondered how difficult it was to publish on Kindle?

 

[Thriftypreneur]

No doubt I will be helping her in her 'project' and wondered how difficult it was to publish on Kindle?

It's really quite simple. I just published my first book, so I'll give you a quick breakdown of how it went for me.

1. I used OpenOffice Writer to construct my first book (similar to Microsoft Word), but I highly recommend Scrivener.

In OpenOffice writer or Word you want your formatting to be set to "First Line Indent." Pretty sure the default settings for this in both Word and Writer will be sufficient for your book.

2. Structure your document in a linear fashion, adding a page break at the end of each, as follows:

-Title Page-
-Copyright Page-
-More by Author Page- (Optional)
-Dedication- (Optional)
-Prologue- (Optional)
-Table of Contents-
-Book Content, Chapters, Etc-

Also see, https://kdp.amazon.com/self-publishing/help?topicId=A17W8UM0MMSQX6

With the exception of the Title Page and Table of Contents, you can put the remaining pages either in the front or the back of your book. Standard practice seems to be the front, but you can manipulate Amazon's First Look feature by moving other pages to the back (like the Copyright Page).

Also, don't use fancy fonts in your documents, because they won't show up. Keep it simple and basic the first time around.

Once your document is completed, you'll want to export/save the file as an HTML document.

3. Preview your work.

With your HTML draft now ready, you should download the Kindle Previewer and check for formatting errors.

Kindle Previewer

Simply download the file, use it to open your HTML book file, and it will compile your book into a workable preview. Look for any formatting errors, ensure that your table of contents is clickable, etc.

3. If you're happy with everything, upload the finished HTML document through your Kindle publishing account, and they will convert it to ebook form for purchase (book cover is also uploaded here, separately).

KDP Home: https://kdp.amazon.com/self-publishing/signin

Hope that helps.

 

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[Charles]

Thank you Thriftypreneur.

I think that will take some worry away from the project for her allowing her to write:thankyousign:

 

[CashFlowDepot]

There is a an alternative! Something in the middle

For the past 15 years or so, I self-published (usually under a pen name). I have my books advertised on my web sites and did creative marketing to drive traffic to the books. I also have Kindle on kdp.Amazon and createspace for print books. They are advertised on ebay as well.

Then I signed up with Next Century Publishing - Providing Authors With the Best Platform for Success They converted the books to all eBook reader formats and they do print on demand and ship within 2 days of an order. The books are beautiful. They also get the books distributed to a lot of different places.

With all the eBook readers out there, it is important to have more than just a PDF or Kindle version. EPUB is very popular.

Unlike a traditional publisher, they do not keep most of the money. You get paid 75% of sales and they do all the marketing!

Getting your book into bookstores is good, but it is not the ultimate goal. The ultimate goal is to sell your book. For Next Century, their goal is to help you sell the maximum number of copies, putting the maximum amount of money into your pockets.

Yes, it’s great if a bookstore sells your books, of course, but most books sell because the author is out there moving the books. And the books in the bookstore, they also sell because you are out there moving your book. So, the answer is you. You are the determining factor in your book’s success. The best approach is to see bookstore sales as “icing on the cake.†It’s great to have, but not a requirement for your survival.

 

[seamles]

Curious if there's been any movement on this thread.

 

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